Outlander B3-5 Engine Spin-Up Protocol - Mike Mas

465 Views 11 Replies 3 Participants Last post by LowOnCash, 24 d ago

LowOnCash

Hey Guys - I just got back from a test ride of my 23 Outlander this morning to evaluate what happens when we select higher than B2 mode while in EV mode which causes the engine to start. (Depending on HV battery SOC)

As the car travels in EV mode in “D” (drive) the processor defaults regen level to a B2 setting.

As we move “B” mode to either 3, 4, or 5, the gas engine will immediately start and begin a warm-up sequence running at 1500 rpm raising temperature to roughly 100 degrees and to circulate oil thru the engine. Once the engine warms, it then decreases speed to around 1300 rpm in a readiness state.

During the mode change, the main processor calls up a protocol allowing the drive motors two continue to generate regen power to slow the car, however instead of using the regen to charge the battery, it instead must dissipate the regen energy in another form.

Therefore, rather than charge the battery, current is instead diverted to the engine starter / generator motor which I nick-named “High Speed Spin-Up Sequence”

Therefore, as the accelerator is let off, the regen power created by the drive motors is sent to the engine starter motor, which then accelerates the engine from 1300 rpm high-idle, to well over 3000 rpm, depending on the cars speed. The higher the speed the faster the engine is turned to dissipate regen energy. I witnessed 4000+ rpm at 65 mph.

Considering this is the state in higher B Modes, there is little to no regen advantages using higher than B2 while in EV mode. The Outlander is equipped with large disks and calipers to easily handle slowing the car during high SOC.

I included some images below captured at the OBD port. The first image shows the engine in a warm up state running at 1500 rpm to reach around 100 degrees.

The second image shows the engine warmed in a B mode “ready state” and lowered to 1300 rpm waiting for regen or speed-up.

The third image shows after releasing the accelerator at 45 mph, the starter motor has now spun the engine to over 3000 rpm to dissipate regen energy.

The next two images show the regen levels from the drive motors as the accelerator is let up at the speed of 45 mph. I noted that regardless if the B mode was in 3-4 or 5 regen level did not change and remained constant.

Regards - Mike

ENGINE WARM UP MODE

ENGINE IN B-5 MODE READY

Font Line Gas Electric blue Electronic device

ENGINE IN HIGH SPEED SPIN-UP

REGEN LEVELS THROTTLE RELEASED ENGINE IN SPIN UP SEQUENCE

Gauge Odometer Trip computer Font Speedometer

REGEN LEVELS THROTTLE RELEASED ENGINE IN SPIN UP SEQUENCE

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Hasenphever

· #2 · 29 d ago

That's great stuff, thanks for looking into that and sharing! The unrelated-regen photo at the end is a nice touch haha!

I wish that Mitsu provides this info in the manual and used a different colour for the engine icon when this protocol is engaged, such as blue. Right now people associate the orange engine with using fuel and then get confused when they are doing their best to not use fuel. Using a different colour here would help reduce that confusion.

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #3 · 29 d ago

Thanks for the reply - Owners like the guys on this forum and myself really crave on seeing what's really happening within the Outlander system. They could have added some extra displays, maybe they were afraid it would be too complex for new owners who just start up and drive.

What really drew me to the Outlander was it offers a true EV experience somewhat like our EV6 except better since it has an onboard range extender. I'm super pleased with the range. I live in a rural area and I average 3.3 - 3.5 m/kw or right at 50+ miles, which is even more than the Rave4 Prime. Regretfully some owners are obsessed for never starting the engine. We all paid good money for that great range extender so we should use it. If you don't run it, engine maintenance will.

Regards - Mike

Mike

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Hasenphever

· #4 · 28 d ago

I was thinking about what you uncovered in your post, which was great, but wonder what happens to the regen energy from B2 when the battery is at a high charge? It's not "high" enough to start the ICE and the high-speed spin-up sequence even though when apply the brakes you can still get the full 40 kw back. But B3+ the energy has to go to the generator and not the drive battery.

I don't understand the programming logic: B2 continue expected operation and feed the drive battery; B3+ surprise everyone and direct regen to the ICE generator instead of the drive battery.

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #5 · 28 d ago (Edited)

Hasenphever said:
I was thinking about what you uncovered in your post, which was great, but wonder what happens to the regen energy from B2 when the battery is at a high charge? It's not "high" enough to start the ICE and the high-speed spin-up sequence even though when apply the brakes you can still get the full 40 kw back. But B3+ the energy has to go to the generator and not the drive battery.

I don't understand the programming logic: B2 continue expected operation and feed the drive battery; B3+ surprise everyone and direct regen to the ICE generator instead of the drive battery.

Thanks for the reply - Regen at full charge still goes to the battery. Keep in mind, when we fully charge our HV battery in reference to the dash gauge of 100%, the battery only has an 80-90% SOC. These high / low buffers preserve the HV lithium batteries health and prolong capacity. Manufactures employ charge buffer in the BMS at the top and at the bottom of the battery, so it's never fully charged or fully discharged.

I know for a fact when the dash gauge shows empty or 0 miles, my OBD reports the battery is still at 24% charge level. This is why you can keep driving at "0" miles for a short way. Once the battery reaches 20%, it starts and warms the gas engine. Once the engine reaches 100+ degrees the generator takes over to power the car hybrid mode.

The generator then maintains a 20+% charge using both regen and the gas engine. As you use power from the battery, the generator immediately replaces what was used to maintain this 20% charge. I don't have the figures on this computer but there is a number of protocols and dash warnings at lower percentages to further protect the battery.

Regards - Mike

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Hasenphever

· #6 · 28 d ago

LowOnCash said:
Thanks for the reply - Regen at full charge still goes to the battery.

Right, so why don't they program this to also happen when using B3+?

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #7 · 28 d ago (Edited)

Hasenphever said:
Right, so why don't they program this to also happen when using B3+?

Thanks for the reply - When you begin a ride with a fully charged battery, the Outlander's BMS processor knows that you're going to consume your HV battery at a much faster rate then the regen energy you'll achieve using B1 or B2 when coasting, so it allows you to store this energy in the HV battery, which will soon be consumed to power the car. Keep in mind, even though your battery shows 100% charge on the dash cluster, it's really only 80-90% SOC, so there's no stress in storing small amounts of regen collected using B1 or B2 (drive).

In retrospect, when you try to store a massive amount of regen energy achievable in B3-B5, this could easily push the battery over its allowable max charge level to possibly damage the health of the battery. For this reason, the BMS processor reverts to another protocol to instead burn up the large amounts of B3-B5 regen energy. It accomplishes this by using the starter/ generator motor to spin the gas engine from 1,200 to over 4,000 rpm consuming the higher energy from regen.

Keep in mind this protocol to spin the engine is a very complex method of dealing with high regen. Outlander could have easily just locked out B3-B5 when the battery was high, instead they came up with this ingenious method to burn away extra regen current.

Mike

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Hasenphever

· #8 · 27 d ago

Hmmm, the above holds true if regen from pedal braking in B1 and B2 is throttled back, even with max pressure. Do you know if this is the case? I will try to remember to keep my eye on what happens in this condition.

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #9 · 27 d ago

Hi - Glad you mentioned that, on my car with high SOC there is no additional Regen when braking so I assume it all mechanical at that point.

Mike

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Lon12

· #10 · 25 d ago

LowOnCash said:
Thanks for the reply - Regen at full charge still goes to the battery. Keep in mind, when we fully charge our HV battery in reference to the dash gauge of 100%, the battery only has an 80-90% SOC. These high / low buffers preserve the HV lithium batteries health and prolong capacity. Manufactures employ charge buffer in the BMS at the top and at the bottom of the battery, so it's never fully charged or fully discharged.

I know for a fact when the dash gauge shows empty or 0 miles, my OBD reports the battery is still at 24% charge level. This is why you can keep driving at "0" miles for a short way. Once the battery reaches 20%, it starts and warms the gas engine. Once the engine reaches 100+ degrees the generator takes over to power the car hybrid mode.

The generator then maintains a 20+% charge using both regen and the gas engine. As you use power from the battery, the generator immediately replaces what was used to maintain this 20% charge. I don't have the figures on this computer but there is a number of protocols and dash warnings at lower percentages to further protect the battery.

Regards - Mike

Mike can you show the OBD battery SOC % when the gauge shows full and empty? Just trying to determine the actual battery capacity. If I'm putting in 19 kWh when I charge and you are saying empty is 24% and full is 80% then we have much bigger batteries then we think.

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #11 · 25 d ago

Hello - Sure I just put her on charge to top it off - I'll get some readings.

I allready made some notes at low SOC on my 23' - when my range shows "0" miles remaining, the HV battery is still at 24% SOC. At this point, the car remains in EV battery mode. As you continue to drive, when the battery SOC drops to 20%, the Genny then starts up and the car enters a normal Hibrid mode, going from battery to Gen depending on speed and demand.

I read in tthe older Outlander's with the smaller pack it maintained 30% battery for hibrid use, I guess with the larger 20 kw pack, it now only needs 20% or so to work in a hybrid mode.

Mike

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LowOnCash

Discussion Starter · #12 · 24 d ago

With the battery and range show full charge (52 miles) the OBD shows 100% SOC @ 399.7 volts. This can't be a true 100% SOC since there has to be both a high and low buffer on the battery that is not used to prolong health.

Mike

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